Why Profitable Agencies Still Struggle With Cash Flow

John Jantsch (00:01.316)

You know, a lot of market agencies can look profitable on every report the owner reads and still scramble to cover payroll by, I don't know, the third week of the month. That gap between profit on paper and cash in the bank comes down to one habit that we're gonna learn about today. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch, and my guest today is Jody Grunden. He is a partner and virtual CFO of

practice leader at Anders CPAs and advisors. He is co-founded Summit CPA Group in two thousand and two, built one of the first fully remote accounting firms in the country and moved clients off hourly building and onto weekly subscription building years before that idea became trendy. He's a Forbes finance council member and he's here to talk about when an agency actually needs a fractional CFO. So Jody, welcome to the show.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (00:55.394)

Yeah, John, thanks for having me.

John Jantsch (00:57.968)

So we were talking a little bit before we got recording. we've both been doing this for a long time. what what what was sort of the genesis of you saying, you know, I need to do this virtually or I'm going to do this virtually and people are gonna accept it even though it's an odd model to them, you know, back twenty years ago?

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (01:15.446)

Mm-hmm.

No, great question. so you know we we we started out as a traditional CPA firm for about the first couple of years. And it it was just something that I knew that hey, this wasn't me. I I didn't enjoy doing it. It it wasn't fun. You know, building the building the business was a lot of fun, but the the work I just didn't enjoy. And so I was trying to think, hey, how can we actually do this? You know, and I get some enjoyment, but the client gets a lot more satisfaction than just simply looking at a financial statement. And so that's when we created this virtual CFO model where we

We're actually, you know, working alongside, answering questions, meeting on a regular basis, creating a cool dynamic forecast and doing some really cool stuff with clients from cash flow to you name it. And at that point it was it was in person. So we were meeting with people right in person. we're bringing our computer out to their place, you know, location. It was just it was really burdensome. It was one of those things that I knew that hey, if we kept doing it this way, there's no way we can scale this because I had to be out there. I couldn't train people because they weren't on the call with me.

It was just really difficult. And so that that was one of the things that we we decided, you know, hey, we're gonna create this CFO model that we can actually, you know, work with clients all across the United States. And so it was a great idea, but nobody was doing it back, you know, in two thousand and four. You know, and and and it just happened that we had a client respond to one of our one of our at at that point it was Google and we were doing Goo Google ads. We weren't we weren't we we were trying to get all the yellow pages, if you remember yellow pages, all that kind of stuff. And this

This person called me from Rhode Island and I at that time I lived in Indiana and called and said, Hey, I love your website. It looks super great, very progressive, forward you know, forward thinking. It was a marketing agency. And they're like, you know, hey, would you be interested in being our CFO? And at that point I'm like, Well, yeah, of course I would love to be your CFO. And and then I'm it's going through my head, how am I gonna actually do this? And and they're like, you know, hey, do you need and then they ask, Well, do you need to actually meet meet with us in person?

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (03:13.643)

And I'm and I asked the question, I go, Well, do you need me to meet with you in person? And I get, well, no. And I go, Well, of course I don't have to meet with you in person. And it was like that was the very first client that I actually had. And it was kind of cool because, you know, from there I learned a ton about marketing agencies, but in the same regard, I learned a ton on how to deliver a service virtually. And man, they loved it. they loved it so much. They're recommending their their their c they're basically their competitors to us. You know, 'cause marketing agencies hang out hang out with each other all the time, as you know. You know, all these different events.

John Jantsch (03:37.614)

Hmm. Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah. Every industry does that, right, yeah.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (03:43.5)

Well, not every industry. Accountants have a hard time sharing information with each other. But that's how that's how it really started. It started with, you know, with hey, just taking a risk and and and just reaching out there and and then figuring it out once I had the opportunity to figure out how to really make it work well. And then from there, you know, we we decided, hey, we're not gonna hire another client that's in Fort Wayne, Indiana. That's where you actually st you know, started it. And we're not gonna hire another employee because we started figuring out how we can do this.

and actually, you know, work without having a an employee in house, which was a a a a big thing. And and and we basically from there just kinda spread out and just grew.

John Jantsch (04:23.8)

A and you work primarily with the creatives and marketing agencies. is there any is there are are there certain things there or did do you have like a haha moment where you said, you know, they have different problems than all of our other clients and you know, nobody's addressing that. I mean, are the i i is there something about the accounting from a marketing agency that is unique?

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (04:46.775)

Well, I I I would say a lot of times ca or profit used to be a bad word. You know, I'd go to these conferences and do and speak and talk about how, you know, you had this certain profit margin in order to, you know, for the world to go around and they looked at me and said, Hey, you know, we we you know, profit's not what we're looking for. And and in reality, in order to grow, you need profit. And and and so, you know, just kind of directing traffic and and kind of determining hey, how much profit is enough profit in order to grow. I think that was the big part about it.

It's just kind of the education part. And we and you know, as you probably know, you want to least have a ten percent bottom line in order to even make cash flow work. And so, you know, that was our our our our bare minimum. Saying, you hey, we have to build up we have to build your metrics in order to get that 10%. And then 25% was kind of like, you know, hey, if we're at 25%, cash is gonna be really good for you. And and so that's where that really kind of started out. And then the second question was is well, you know, hey, we we always heard the slogan, hey, you you never

You don't have too much cash in your business because you're gonna pay taxes and all this kind of stuff. And that that's completely wrong. You know, cash is kind of your biggest KPI. The more cash you have in the business means that you're doing things right and you know you're building cash. Now, obviously you want to figure out how to manage your tax situation so you're not paying too much taxes, but cash isn't the KPI. And so we told pe we told clients that you want to have at least 10% of your annualized revenue in the bank at all times. And so if you're a million dollar

John Jantsch (05:48.176)

Yeah.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (06:10.049)

marketing agency, you want to have about a hundred thousand dollars accessible at at any point in time. Don't drain it out of the company thinking that, hey, if I need it, I'll put it back in, because that never happens. You know, once it's out of the company, you know, especially if you if you have a significant other there, good luck on explaining that significant other why you're putting money back in the company. You know, and it could be just for simple something as simple as cash flow issues. And so, you know, that 10% is really the the the big thing. So profit margin about twenty five percent is golden.

John Jantsch (06:28.528)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (06:32.721)

Sure, sure.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (06:39.051)

If you can but ten percent's minimum on a profit margin, and then I would say at least ten percent of your annualizer revenue, which equates to about two months of expenses if you kinda back into it. If you want to have close to that thirty percent, be more conservative, r risk adverse, then you're looking at more of a thirty percent margin. So a million dollar company have about three hundred thousand dollar cash availability.

John Jantsch (06:58.427)

So

What would what do you tell people when you know you're talking about some of these topics and they're like, we have a bookkeeper, you know, we've had a book the same person for ten years and they they do stuff for us. I mean, what would what would a CFO or or typically you probably don't want to do bookkeeping. maybe you have that as a service, but but typically what would adding a virtual CFO or a service like yours be how would that be different than just, hey, I got my you know, my bank reconciled and you know, now I'm good to go?

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (07:15.969)

Right, right, right. Mm-hmm.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (07:28.309)

Yeah, that's a great great question. And you're right. You know, we we obviously don't want to do the bookkeeping. We'll do it if if we have to. If if it's one of those things where it's a cost thing, you know, we'll we'll take over that bookkeeping function. But we'd rather we'd have rather have the the bookkeeping in-house. And then, you know, from there, when those books are finally closed and that they look good, what a CFO does takes that information and really helps you make decisions. You know, helps you create a dynamic forecast. When when I talk about forecasting

You know, a lot of folks are you know, what what does that really mean? Does that mean putting a budget together and then looking at it and comparing it? No, that's not what that means. You know, what that means is that you create a dynamic forekay at fast based on your non financial information, you know, number of employees you have, hours that's being worked, utilization rates, average bill rates, all these different factors that go into it, and you build the revenue side based on your your current team. You know, what's your team capable of doing? And so what's your team capable of doing each month? Because every month's gonna be different because you have

multiple days in one month, not as many days, holidays in one month. And so you you really build it out you know and and based on, you know, hey, where where are you at? And and then the key the key to that is that once you have that information, the CFO can guide the story. You know, hey, here's what you're supposed here's what you're supposed to be doing this month. Maybe it's you know fifty thousand dollar a month or maybe it's a seventy thousand maybe it's a hundred thousand dollar a month. Why didn't you hit that?

You y you only you only had you know eighty thousand, you're supposed to hit a hundred thousand. It's like, well, because of X, Y, Z, you hear the all the stories on why they hit it. And so, okay, great. Is that you know we're gonna hit it next month? Yeah, we'll definitely hit it next month. Then you you look at it next month, it's like, why didn't we hit it again? You know, again, the same story. So should we adjust the forecast down? So instead of, you know, maybe that million dollar trend that we're we're we're doing, or maybe it's a two million dollar or three million dollar or fifty million, however big the company is, it doesn't make any difference.

You know, what where there is, maybe we have to l low lower expectations a little bit. And so what that benefits for is that benefits is because now we can see the cash position. We can see, you know, hey, based on hitting these numbers, we know that in November, you know, maybe here, maybe we're maybe we're looking at this in March. In November we're looking at and we're saying, you know what, looks like we're at the bar on the line of credit. Oops, we don't have a big enough line of credit. Let's build that line of credit now because we know we're gonna hit on it for for various reasons. Or it might say, you know, hey, we're gonna be negative cash then.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (09:46.072)

What do we need to do in order to make sure we're not negative cash? Let's build let's build it now so that never happens. And so we're always in that positive. And and so that's what the CFO does. CfO takes the information, the accounting information, and really helps the business owner make the decisions that are, you know, gonna get get them to where they ultimately wanna go.

John Jantsch (10:04.622)

You you know, a lot of I I mean we I'll I'll spare you the CPA jokes, the accounting jokes. But but but you know, a lot of those you know, I still I've been in a business thirty years and I still couldn't really tell you what my balance sheet is for. but you know, a lot of the reporting and things that we get f you know, are kind of like rear view mirror stuff. It's like, well, yeah, that's what happened.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (10:10.037)

Yeah, yeah, no. I hear all the time.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (10:19.863)

Yep. Yep.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (10:26.933)

Exactly. Yep. Yep.

John Jantsch (10:27.706)

Too late to do anything about it, but that's what happened. What you know, how do you how do you actually come into a business and and give it like KPIs that they need to be tracking maybe weekly, you know, during the month as opposed to waiting till the books are closed, you know, or whatever it is and and and what are the simple things they should be tracking that maybe they're not because they're just used to gap accounting.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (10:51.329)

Yeah, great great question. So and you're a hundred percent right. traditionally that's what a CPA did. CPA looked backwards all the time and then explained what you did wrong. And like you said, John, it was too late. They can help you make the decision because you already made it, good or bad. It was it was already done. And so a as the CFO, well what they'll do is they'll take those non-financial indicators that we're talking about. So if you're if you're an agency and you bill by the hour, it you know that the CFO is gonna want to know how many how how many

John Jantsch (11:02.797)

Yeah.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (11:19.999)

employees that you how many production employees that you have, you know, how many hours are the expectation are they expected to to bill on you know per month, per week, you know, whatever that might be. they're gonna they're gonna break it down by what what what is the average bill rate of your clients. Not not not the standard bill rate, what you're actually charging on the on the quote, but what what you're actually getting, you know, meaning that are you are you writing stuff up, writing things down because you went over on time.

You know, you are you went under on time but you were able to build out. You know, those are great, great situations. So all that kinda plays into it. And so those are the those are the indicators that a businessman really needs to follow as as they're going through and and and creating that forecast. And 'cause those those that that's what's gonna really cause the it's basically the cause and effect, right? That's the cause and you're and and the effect is no cash or a lot of cash, no profit, a lot of profit. And so we've got to look at those on a regular basis and whether that's on a monthly basis, a weekly basis.

It really makes no difference. It just has to be consistently done. And and and consistently is the key. It can't be done, you know, when things are going really bad, or it can't be done only when things are going great and now we're gonna gloat about it and think we're gonna we're great. It's gotta be done on a consistent basis, good or bad, every week, every month, whatever that might, whatever that cadence is. And then that's really the key. And that's really what a CFO does. It's it's a it's like if you ever have a gym membership, you know, if you have a personal trainer, you you you you meet that personal trainer, you're there all the time. If you don't, a lot of times excuses get in the way.

And you keep pushing it off on why I need to go to the gym. You know, I've got this great gym membership, but I never use it. Well, I have a personal trainer. I know that person's gonna be there. I spent the money for it. And and and that's really kind of the same situation that a good CFO is gonna be. They're gonna be able to hold you accountable and be that be that consistency factor.

John Jantsch (13:03.77)

So so we have I know you have your model is to kinda get out of the hourly rut and to to to actually have a subscription. We have for many, many years, at least twenty years, operated that way.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (13:09.9)

Yep.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (13:13.847)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (13:18.344)

we're basically my here, I'll tell you my methodology is we charge one we charge one fee, a set fee to do strategy first. And that's the only thing they can start with. and they pay that fee and ninety-nine percent of them say, This is awesome, will you do it all for us? and so then that moves to a retainer.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (13:22.337)

Yep, I like to hear.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (13:27.789)

Okay. Yep.

John Jantsch (13:37.977)

And the way we factor retainers is this is the scientific method. I figure out how much I think they can pay me the rest of their life every month. and then we are in charge of the scope for what they're gonna get, you know, that month. Some months it works, some months it doesn't work. I know we've left money on the table because you know, we don't say, well, we can do that, but it's gonna be fifty thousand more. but we just kind of say, Hey, we'll work that in the retainer and here's what we can get done this month or this quarter.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (13:47.778)

Mm-hmm.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (13:53.503)

Okay. Yep. Mm-hmm.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (14:06.274)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (14:07.89)

And one of the things that I believe, you know, just looking at industry trends, is we keep our clients for years. Which is not, you know, the case in a lot of you know kind of package, you know, product agencies. And so tell me about you know that. First off, tell me if my model is stupid, but then also if you're seeing more of a trend towards that.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (14:14.861)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, same here.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (14:20.501)

Yep. Yep.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (14:33.023)

No, no.

John Jantsch (14:36.87)

in the agency world or where the gotchas are, you know, in that model.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (14:40.237)

Sure. Yeah, so our our model is very similar to what you're what you're saying. And how how we do our model is that you know, everything is done weekly. And so we we have a our our our cadence is weekly, meaning that we zap your account every Monday at the same time, same, you know, w you know, for until really in perpetual per perpetually until you you end the service, you know, that type of thing. Average client stays with us for about five years. So again, it gives you that that longevity, yeah, that longevity factor there.

And so how we how we decided to break it out is that we we we looked it into three different tiers. And so our our tiers were what we call transactional service, which is if hey if if they if they required to do specific things, here's what here's what we're gonna do. Maybe it's paying somebody's bills or you know, doing something like that. And then we have what we call controller level service. So we we actually named them controller level, where that where we're we're doing the accounting looking backward, like we were talking about earlier. And then we had the virtual CFO looking forward.

So we created three different levels of services that a client could could actually pick. And then we created an a la carte feature below and said, you know, hey, because not every client wanted us to pay their bills. You know, someone wanted to keep it in the house. Some of them wanted us to do their payroll, some didn't. And we originally we charged one fee and it was like, well, you know, then we were like, well, hey, we're not doing this. Can you like cut our fee down? Or it was like, well, I I didn't want to negotiate anything. I didn't want to actually, I just wanted to present it and allow them to pick and choose their a la carte. And so I a la carted it.

And so the and I said, you know, hey, if you want to have us, you know, do your forecasting, click the button here, boom. Here's how much it costs now on a weekly basis to do that. And it would it it just went you know forward. So every if they want us to do taxes, for instance, we could do that. We didn't have to do taxes. We we could just work along the tax provider. Here's what it's gonna cost for there. And so we we we we made it so that the client picked their own adventure, which clients love that because that they have full control now. And and we never got the the hey, can you can you discount our fee anymore?

John Jantsch (16:30.799)

Yeah.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (16:34.529)

We I yeah, I get that maybe maybe once every couple years. I mean, it doesn't happen very often because what we do is we allow the client, hey, if you want a lower fee, here's the service that you're gonna get for that lower fee. And they're like, Hey, that's great. Can I add later? And probably along with yours, a week we say, Yeah, absolutely. You can change your scope anytime you want. And then the scope changes and say, Hey, let's do this. The scope changes the very next week. So it's the weekly cadence works great 'cause we don't have to we don't have to worry about fractions of a month or anything like that. We can just start right away on the following Monday, which

John Jantsch (16:38.722)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (17:04.321)

worked out really, really well. And it and it worked so well that, you know, clients love it because we took the risk from them saying no right off the bat. You know, cause the risk is, hey, if it's gonna be an eighty thousand dollar engagement, for instance, or a fifty thousand dollar engagement, they're not signing up for a fifty thousand dollar engagement. They're signing up for eighteen hundred bucks a week or twelve hundred bucks a week or whatever that weekly fee comes out to be, knowing that they if they're not happy with it, they can cancel any time. And so that was the biggest barrier there. And that

John Jantsch (17:24.942)

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (17:33.176)

What that did is increased our our win ratio to about well actually originally it was about eighty percent. We were getting a lot of a lot of wins, which was not a good thing. And so we had to actually increase prices and and fluctuate it around to determine, you know, hey, here's what here's what the going rate is for because supply and demand, you know, hey, are are they, you know, do we do is is the closing ratio going down or is it going up? And and so that's how we regulated our our pricing to be able to do that. And then what we did from there, we had we had to make sure that our team

was you know focusing on that pricing and was able to actually make changes as they go. So I made all my CFOs. They they they they make the adjustments as they go forward. Once the deal is closed, we allow the CFOs to make any kind of adjustments. So again it's not a timing issue. It's not, hey, let's go back and get, you know, this out of this black box thing and figure out how much is going to be because you you're a you know a bazillion dollar company or whatever. the other thing we thought is is that we we what what one of the big holes that we found is that

it it was flat. There was no there we we didn't take into consideration the size of the company, which was a big mistake. because what we found was that a thirty million dollar company is gonna be a lot more intensive. We're gonna be a doing a lot more things for them than maybe a million dollar company. You know, and and so we had to then scale it based on size. And so that's what we did. We scaled our fee based on the size of the company. And so then when we're going through the quotes, we're saying, you know, hey million dollar company

know here's your fee is today. And you know, hey, when you get to that three million dollar mark, boom, here's what your fee will be when you hit that three million dollar. So we we actually show them exactly how it scales. And so there's no surprises at all as we do our price increases every year. And we tell them right off the bat also that we have a five percent you know price increase every year. It's about five percent. And and we'll let you know in January and then if you you know that then you know it'll it'll take an effect in March. And we tell them that right up front. So that was the other thing too is that

We we didn't want to get stuck in in old pricing structure with a client that's been with us for you know s forever where we're actually start losing money as we're with the client. And so we we we built that in there. So those were the the big traps that we had was one was the you know, scaling based on size and and that that was a big thing big factor for us for especially agencies. we could easily do that. with the the other factor was the you know the the the fee increases and then we we we we took out the monthly bill or the the

John Jantsch (19:32.836)

Right. Yes.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (19:55.999)

billing in arrears and just simply did it the very first day of every month or every week is is the day we zapped their accounts and and and we get zero pushback which is which is great clients love it because they don't have to worry about it

John Jantsch (19:59.05)

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (20:06.744)

Yep. Yep. Yep. I'm curious, I

As I listen to your methodology, I mean, you're you're talking profitability, you're talking sales pipeline, you're talking about things that maybe start to venture outside of the traditional accounting world. I you know, we see it all the time. It's like we're doing an amazing job generating leads, and they're walking out the back door because your customer service is terrible. and so we have to get into their customer service, right? I mean, or otherwise we're gonna get fired. and so I'm curious, how do you handle that? Because some of what you're telling people.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (20:23.558)

yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (20:35.608)

Yep. Yep.

John Jantsch (20:42.546)

People is their marketing's terrible, right? Do you tell them you need to go hire, you know, this or you need to get an agency, or do you actually have partners that you work with in all the areas? Yeah.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (20:50.658)

Yeah. Well it's kind of funny 'cause yeah, it's funny because you work with agencies, right? And so t tell an agency that their marketing's terrible is kind of a a tough one. But what we what we do get into is the sales outlook part and we say, you know, hey, we built this great forecast for you. And that forecast says you're gonna pick up this many clients and this and you know, and you're gonna your churn's gonna be really low, whatever that might be. And when but but when we look at it, it we build that forecast based on the capacity of the team, and then we the last step is taking that sales outlook, you know, whether they're using HubSpot or whatever.

John Jantsch (20:59.417)

Yeah.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (21:20.514)

We come up with a good methodology to determine really, is that forecast realistic? You know, because you know, they're they're not getting as many opportunities as what they say to be able to to afford the people that they have. Or maybe they're getting many more opportunities, and because of that, their team isn't big enough. You know, so that's where that sales outlook is that that fourth part of the of the puzzle that we have to look at it and say, you know, hey, you need to generate more revenue. How are you gonna do it? And then that conversation comes about, you know, hey, well.

John Jantsch (21:36.026)

Yeah.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (21:48.111)

You know, and and it's just simply a conversation at that point. You know, we we can't run their business for them by any means. But maybe it's like, you know, hey, what are you doing with you know, what are you doing with paid media or what are you doing with, you know, SEO or wh whatever that might be. And then we start getting into that conversation and then and and that's where they you know, maybe the light bulb might go off and say, you know, hey, we you know, we're the cobbler shoe type of thing where we probably should outsource our own marketing, you know, versus bringing it in house.

John Jantsch (21:51.758)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (22:09.349)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (22:14.466)

I I I tell you our big Achilles heel is is what I call tool creep. and I'm sure you see this in agencies. I mean our expenses are just ridiculous because we have to have every new tool that's forty dollars a month and every team member needs a seat. And next thing you know you're paying tens of thousands of dollars for something that you're maybe not actually utilizing that fully. So again, that's a that's for a whole nother show, but I'm sure you have definitely seen that. So Joe Yeah.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (22:22.177)

Mm-hmm.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (22:27.394)

Yep.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (22:30.968)

Yep.

Mm-hmm. Yep. Mm-hmm.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (22:38.56)

I I can I can I can tell you the quick solve for that is we we use we use a product called Divi which is bill which is basically from bill dot com. And the Divi cards, we set the Divi card up for every s you can set it up for every specific tool that you have. And so you have a Divi card, you know maybe you have ten Divi cards, each of them aligned with a specific tool, paying that monthly bill. And so that that's one of those things that you that it puts it it it it puts right in front your face. And then you can turn it off really quick.

John Jantsch (22:45.698)

Sure. Yeah.

John Jantsch (23:05.486)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well Jody, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there some place you'd invite people to connect with you and find out more about your work?

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (23:07.266)

Which is which is kind of nice.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (23:18.24)

Yeah, you know, you know, John, you can always just you if you Google my name, it it pops up all over the place. I've done tons of YouTube videos, you know, books, you know, you you name it. It's out there, a lot of free resources there. If you want to reach out to me directly, feel free to drop me a quick email. And that's jody at anderscpa.com. So it's a-n-d-e-r-s-cpa.com. And you can reach out there. Of course I'm on LinkedIn as well, so there's a lot of different ways to get me.

John Jantsch (23:44.112)

Awesome. Well again, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by and hopefully we'll maybe we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Jody Grunden |

Virtual CFO (23:50.786)

Sounds great, John. It's a pleasure.